[Earth Child]

I missed the climate change discussion so I'll post some questions to anybody interested. As was previously mentioned by others, Earth will pretty much survive anything we do short of trying to blow it apart with all of our existing nukes, and I don't know if that is even possible to do. This is all really a matter of saving the bulk of humanity from itself.

Do you think humanity deserves to be bailed out of its impending crises? Or do you think we need a solid kick in the ass, a culling of the herd?

If we do indeed deserve to be saved, at least some of us perhaps, then do you know of any existing solutions to our problems, or have some ideas of your own? Do you think culling the herd, via natural agents such as disease, virus, famine, weather/geologic events and in our case war is in fact the solution?

Some believe a change in attitude is necessary before any solutions, if they exist, can be put into place. But is it even possible to effect a massive change in attitude towards a massive group of people? Do you think it is already too late for homo sapiens and it is time for the next species or group of species' to enter the spotlight for its 15 seconds of fame in geologic time? After all, we are really just a fart in the wind given the amount of time we've spent on this planet. In light of that fact, our arrogance never ceases to astound me.

[tjwilhelm]

IMHO...

"Deserves to be bailed out?" Interesting question.

I believe the universe is totally impersonal and inherently fair. Via the law of "Cause and Effect," we (individually and collectively) will always "reap what we sow." We, ourselves, determine what we deserve, by the choices we make in the thoughts we hold, the words we speak, and the actions we take.

What we are experiencing now, and the challenges that will be unfolding in the future, are merely the natural outworkings of processes that "WE" set into motion long ago.

Of course, we have the freedom to suddenly choose the path of wisdom, compassion, and love. Indeed, individuals here and there make this vital transformation on a routine basis. Unfortunately, they are so few and far between that their impact on the collective "WE" is negligible...therefore, eventually, the S WILL hit the F.

Survival? Those who've earned it, will. Those who haven't, won't. Some who have stockpiled supplies and learned primitive skills, may be among the first to be exterminated. Some who've made no effort to prepare at all may outlive all of us. However, by and large, I believe the majority of survivors will be those who've at least given the possibilities some reasonable thought, and have done at least a minimal amount to prepare themselves for challenging shifts and changes.

Mental and emotional preparedness are essential...Physical preparedness is vital...BUT, probably the most important kind of preparedness is (for lack of a better word) "spiritual." When you're "good with God," when your karmic balance leans to the positive, when your spiritual ledger is "in the black," then you're probably going to be among the minority of folks who "deserve" to survive.

[dukman]

Originally Posted by Earth Child

Or do you think we need a solid kick in the ass, a culling of the herd?

I don't know about a culling of the herd, even though it may happen regardless, but mother nature has been trying to give us a swift kick in the ass for as long as we have been around. But we have been ignoring her. Unless you are here reading this, then you have heard her wake up call.

Some believe a change in attitude is necessary before any solutions, if they exist, can be put into place. But is it even possible to effect a massive change in attitude towards a massive group of people?

I don't see any mass change in attitude happening before any mass change of population is in place. The population as a whole is too bent on having fancy packaging on their shiny new products, and are more worried about the packaging than the quality of the item! In this technological world it is only getting worse. Everyone thinks they need a new widescreen TV, and a new computer every two years. I blame some of this on the government, such as there was no reason to force the digital change on society when there are more pressing issues that deserve those tax dollars more.

Now that I am getting into prepping, I feel myself becoming more and more environmentally aware. I make do with what I have. I am a little OCD when it comes to clothes, I only buy new... but I usually only buy quality clothes that will last a long time like Dickies. I don't buy new DVDs or CDs. Heck, I even did away with the cable company! I have no desire to buy a new car just for the sake of owning a new car. My 20yo car and 25yo truck still do what they were built to do just fine. I buy more in bulk, if nothing else, to at least save on the packaging. I am always shopping at Goodwill and other thrift stores.

I wish my state would do a can/bottle deposit like Oregon and other states. It is too bad that most end up in the landfill around here because finding a recycling bin can be a hassle. Um...sorry for the rambin'....

Do you think it is already too late for homo sapiens and it is time for the next species or group of species' to enter the spotlight for its 15 seconds of fame in geologic time? After all, we are really just a fart in the wind given the amount of time we've spent on this planet. In light of that fact, our arrogance never ceases to astound me.

LMAO! That quote is almost sig worthy! I don't feel like our time on earth is done. I think that eventually, if a comet doesn't destroy us first, and after some famine and devestation, evolve into a different species. Where it will lead our descendants, I don't know. I just hope we don't develop space travel and treat the next planet we find like we have this one....

[endtimeinmytime]

Well, you will find that there are those here, on this forum, whom believe in certain scriptural events unfolding which will bring about the solution to the problem. And there are those here that believe in pure chance and every individual's own self made destiny.

My thought;

The Big Bang is yet to come, for we are an uncivilized civilization of monsters, still trying to figure out just what in the world we are doing here. We just keep on searching for our own little answer, but try to maintain a difference with everyone else's answer, just to have something to argue about. Nobody actually wins the fight.

It's like a dog in the backyard. He'll dig a hole in the dirt to get to the cool soil below the surface, trying to escape the heat of the day. When he gets up to use the bathroom or chase a squirrel, he comes back to soil, now warmed by the sun. He'll then either dig further into that hole or dig another. Before long, his ankle deep hole is now over a foot deep. Soon after, there will be numerous holes...all getting deeper every day. Eventually, the dog's owner is going to come out, with a shovel, and start filling in the holes...and possibly add the dog to one of them.

Moral of the story;
There is an end in sight, for all things. As well will there be new beginnings.



But, just for giggles, the image is from an actual group that seeks voluntary human expiration.(suicide) However, since they run their own show, they cannot be considered likely self-participants.

[vthompson]

Originally Posted by tjwilhelm

IMHO...

"Deserves to be bailed out?" Interesting question.

I believe the universe is totally impersonal and inherently fair. Via the law of "Cause and Effect," we (individually and collectively) will always "reap what we sow." We, ourselves, determine what we deserve, by the choices we make in the thoughts we hold, the words we speak, and the actions we take.

What we are experiencing now, and the challenges that will be unfolding in the future, are merely the natural outworkings of processes that "WE" set into motion long ago.

Of course, we have the freedom to suddenly choose the path of wisdom, compassion, and love. Indeed, individuals here and there make this vital transformation on a routine basis. Unfortunately, they are so few and far between that their impact on the collective "WE" is negligible...therefore, eventually, the S WILL hit the F.

Survival? Those who've earned it, will. Those who haven't, won't. Some who have stockpiled supplies and learned primitive skills, may be among the first to be exterminated. Some who've made no effort to prepare at all may outlive all of us. However, by and large, I believe the majority of survivors will be those who've at least given the possibilities some reasonable thought, and have done at least a minimal amount to prepare themselves for challenging shifts and changes.

Mental and emotional preparedness are essential...Physical preparedness is vital...BUT, probably the most important kind of preparedness is (for lack of a better word) "spiritual." When you're "good with God," when your karmic balance leans to the positive, when your spiritual ledger is "in the black," then you're probably going to be among the minority of folks who "deserve" to survive.

I agree with TJ, I think that he hit the nail on the head. Nice post TJ!

[Celticwarrior]

I am of a different mind than my friend TJ. Although he says the universe is impersonal, he then says it is inherently fair. I suppose that is a matter of perspective. Fair is that state in which you find you get what you deserve, and in that I can certainly see his point. However, there is no reason for me to believe that the universe knows or cares about our fate, any more than any other species. I don't think that we can expect it to be fair to us. If you look at hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, etc. the capricious nature of the universe leads one to believe that if you happen to be in the way of whatever disasters are in store for the earth, you are toast. A gamma burst, a bright or dim solar event, an asteroid strike, or any number of other nasty things that the planet has gone through in the past (look up "snowball earth" and "collision theory moon origin" just for starters! Yikes!!) you soon realize that if we are here when something bad happens, it won't be any better or worse for us than for any other species on the planet. Indifferent, impersonal, and random. Those are far better ways to describe nature than "fair". Karma says we reap what we sow, as TJ put it. However, it has been my sad experience that bad things happen to good people, and evil is not checked by the forces of the universe, nor is justice always done. Dastardly people thrive and prosper, while the virtuous suffer and toil and endure endless grief. The universe doesn't care about moral abstracts like good and evil. It doesn't care if you were a saint or a sinner. It goes on, and on, and on, without a pause to check on our spiritual compasses.

Dinosaurs reigned on earth for over 160 MILLION years. We humans, as primates able to do more than just hang out in trees throwing our feces at each other, have only been around for around a million or so years, give or take a few hundred thousand years. Why should we believe we are better than they were? They succeeded as species for one reason: the planet allowed it. It was pure chance that it was stable and had an atmosphere heavy in Oxygen for them and CO2 for the plants they ate (compared to today's atmosphere, which wouldn't support such huge animals or the lush plant growth worldwide that they required). Then, BLAM, an asteroid hits, it sets off a chain reaction of hundreds of volcanoes going off and destroying the ecosystem, and pretty soon the dinos were history. (well, except for birds, but that's pretty minor compared to a T-Rex hanging out in your neighborhood.) It wasn't Karma, or that they deserved to die, or that mammals deserved a shot in the sun. It was just bad luck.

We are no different. We might destroy ourselves. We might not. We may end up finding a way around all of our problems only to be wiped out by a germ, or a cosmic ray blast, or a seismic event related to the core and poleshift. Who knows? We can only try to do the best we can while we are here with what we have available to us at the moment. We haven't done such a stellar job of that so far.

[tjwilhelm]

Oh gosh, I don't think we're THAT far apart in what we're sayin', CW.

When I used the word "fair," I specifically meant impersonal and impartial...meaning mother nature doesn't go out of her way to specifically pick on one individual or another. She just provides the playground for the working out of the never-ending and interwoven chains of cause-and-effect processes.

Just for the purpose of clarification, one area in which our views MAY differ (I'm not really certain about that) is that I see a clear distinction between humans and the other species that inhabit the earth. If I may borrow a phrase I've heard before, I see humans as primarily being spiritual beings having a temporary physical experience, inhabiting these physical bodies we so readily identify with. I also mean to imply that when these bodies of ours' expire that we maintain a continuity of consciousness that continues outside and apart from the body we have vacated.

In my previous post, I didn't mean to imply absolutes; but, rather, generalities-with-exceptions. Yes, there are some good people to whom bad things happen. Yes, there are bad people who seem to catch a break at every turn. But, I believe these are the exceptions and not the rule. I think the points I made in my post are applicable to most (not all) situations; and, of course, I was not addressing situations of extreme global annihilation.

I love the way you think CW. You always make me exercise my brain, to the max! LOL! And I definitely need that kind of exercise!

Back to Earth Child's question: Do you think there are solutions to our problems? I guess my answer can be summed up, thus: Yes, there may be solutions available for society at large; but, no, I doubt they will effectively applied. Therefore, the path toward troubling change and challenge is set, and the minority of us with ears to hear and eyes to see, can only do what we're able to prepare for the coming storms.

[crazydave]

I beleive in daisyworld and gaia far more than I will ever beleive in any alleged scriptorial events, belief in things like the rapture is just causing more damage just like priests would tell their parish that the lice and vermin inhabiting their clothing was a penance on earth that if they life with it they will enjoy a purer heaven. all they needed was a good regular bath. I try to respect the faith of others but some things do take the biscuit and organised profitmaking religion should be banned. for example there is a large concensus that those that believe in the rapture like bush are actually trying to set about the thing they believe in hence the mess in the middle east and not giving a damn about the planet if it does happen then the world will be a better place as they will have gone and we can sort their mess out.

the more crowded we get the more suseptable to diseases so hopefully one will take hold properly and balance us out. especially now we have halted evolution and need drugs to bail us out of everything.

technology can be used to help with some of the by product issues of mans existance but not the way we treat the resources like other species. I find it intersting that a lot of sci fi writers see this so you often get a true communist style of planetary government like in star trek for example.

[George]

As said above a lot of people cannot be helped with current medicines, as multidrug resistance is rife.

We not only allow any child to survive but we can spend up to few million dollars, actually once medicos start to save child, there doesn't seem to be monetary limit and such a child reaching maturity can reproduce, hence spread out the weak genes.

As a democratic society we seem to be more and more compassionate, but as individuals we have more and more people who are brutal, arrogant, ignorant, selfish (just to start the list).

Also as said above, prepared people might become a fair game for opportunists who will stop at nothing to help themselves to everybody else’s supplies.

Cannibalism? You bet, on the menu cards for sure.

Sometimes it overwhelms me just thinking about it.

[dukman]

Originally Posted by crazydave

the more crowded we get the more suseptable to diseases so hopefully one will take hold properly and balance us out. especially now we have halted evolution and need drugs to bail us out of everything

Anyone watch StarGate SG:1? Maybe we are on track to become like the Asguard (spelling?). We will come to know all kinds of technology, keep famine and diseases at bay, but along the way we lose the thing we need the most, a future.