[raymondsimmons]

I personally would NOT use pine boughs as bedding if you are going to have a fire inside. I think, because you are asking, you see the obvious problem.

[Democracyman]

I personally would NOT use pine boughs as bedding if you are going to have a fire inside. I think, because you are asking, you see the obvious problem.

The obvious problem is catching your bedding on fire, But I would do this
with a dakota fire hole, not on the top of the ground. I imagine I can get
away with this with care?

democracy, there is no 'which to build first rule', and only you can decide for yourself what shelter works best for you. myself i like a tarp shelter, ive tried debris huts, not to shabby but i still have better luck with the tarp. cheap 8x10 tarps can be found for as little as 4 bucks. if you carry a small bit of firestarter with you it wont matter how wet the wood is, but practice at home first. i carry some fatwood sticks, small ones that dont take any space, and a couple of weber firestarter cubes. along with my firesteel i can get a fire going almost anywhere. myself, depending on the conditions(raining, snowing, dark already), i usually prefer to get a shelter built(doesnt take as long with a tarp setup as it would building from foraged materials) and then gather as much wood as i can find. dead evergreen boughs burn well even if completly saturated with water because of their resiny properties.
like i said it all depends on you, the area you are in, what you have to work with, and most of all, being prepared.
im not sure if you are trying to do the les stroud or bear grylls thing, but in my opinion what those shows are for is mainly to try and show you what to do if you are put in that situation. real survivalist/preppers survive by being prepared for the worst, or at least having what is needed to get through the worst. i would never go into the woods without 2 ways to make fire, something to be used as a shelter(tarp/hikers tent/something), and a good light/headlight to see to gather wood for fire. and a way to purify water for drinking/cooking after the supply i brought in with me is depleted.
19 Hours Ago 23:10

Thanks for the tip on dead evergreen boughs, any more tips, up high at the
tree line in the mountains in the Pacific north west. You don't have much
to choose from, dead branches under the bigger trees and the dead evergreen
boughs, I wonder does one type of tree burn better than others?
Also I thought that a tool to dig into dead trees and stumps would be a good
idea, maybe a survival military shovel? I ordered a Cold Steel Spetznaz type
shovel to try out. Usually one needs to carry a snow shovel so I thought to
try this one out for double duty as snow shovel and survival shovel/tool.

http://www.coldsteel.com/spshovel.html

Also you reminded me to carry a metal cup for day trips as part of the kit.

I am still wondering on how to do the best shelter. A tarp would be better
than a painter's drop cloth(made of plastic) but more heavy to carry, this
is more of a just in case item than a on purpose camp trip. If I was going to
camp on purpose I would have the full tent kit.

I got a .7 mil painters plastic drop cloth from lows, total cost was 2.15 , sure
is cheap enough, now to figure out how to build a shelter. Nine foot by twelve foot.

http://www.amazon.com/Z-Pro-Plastic-.../dp/B000KKKXCU
(not exact one I got but close)

I imagine a wood frame work of some type and maybe snow on top of the
plastic for insulation if I use a A frame and some way a fire.

Maybe Ron's design is the best as on this site... when you have snow
for insulation.

But I am thinking of a fire inside the shelter as like a Wigwam shelter, maybe
a type of hybrid shelter of some sort?


Dan

[Democracyman]

To give you guys a better idea of what I am thinking of, I am
part of a mountain SAR group, so this could be used in that
situation. Even if I had full overnight gear a subject may need
this kit or part of the kit and I would build a shelter for myself
and maybe for someone else. etc

Also I do mountain climbing trips myself, hike into the
mountains and also plan to get a back country ski outfit
and want to do back country skiing. This could often be
day trips, so need a emergency kit and skills for this.

Dan

[Slade N. Illinois]

well, I have done a two lean-to with a fire inside. It worked great. I will try to make one and post the pics or video for you. Look for it in the next week or two.

[AlpineZone]

If your talking in the winter months nothing beats an igloo. But the snow has to be right to do this so a well built snow cave works extremely well. Make sure you dig down then up to a platform when you make one. Also poke a hole in the top of the snow cave for ventilation for a candle, candle lantern, a small fire etc.

In an extreme emergency if nothing is avaliable get out your emergency blanket and all the warm clothing you can or garbage bag. Find yourself a large snowdrift and get inside it wrapping what ever you can around you.

Stick anything you can between your clothing and the outside air, pine boughs, pages from anything paper you have on you (wrap it in a ball first). If you have stuff sacks with you and nothing is available stick snow in them.

Hope this was useful.

[JMJKD]

Democracyman: Shelter is what is available to you where you are. If you R talking emergency then you rape your area, if your talking purity (bushcraft) then you play nicy nicy and you take what nature provides with good conscious, if you are talking prepping go buy great gear.
here is R 2 vid's I did on shelter I’m from the northeast maybe same type terrain maybe this will give you some ideas???


YouTube - Wlderness shelter, in a shelter

YouTube - Shelter improvements: scavenging for material

[Democracyman]

If your talking in the winter months nothing beats an igloo. But the snow has to be right to do this so a well built snow cave works extremely well. Make sure you dig down then up to a platform when you make one. Also poke a hole in the top of the snow cave for ventilation for a candle, candle lantern, a small fire etc.

I have tried the Igloo and a snow cave, I really don't favor these myself as
snow cave you get wet building and takes a lot of energy, and a igloo takes
even more energy to build. I would rather have a more open shelter with a
fire boughs for beding or a build a small enclosed shelter with a wood frame and boughs for a bed
if I had the choice.

Thanks for everyone's help.

What I would like to see is more videos of shelters built up high on
the mountain near the tree line and see how that goes in winter.

I really don't like snow caves and igloos, I don't see them as warm and cozy
especially if you have no sleeping bag and pad.

Dan

[crazydave]

you shouldnt get wet making either if you strip down before doing the exercise. there's also the quinzy which is done when the snow isnt so deep and you are around trees.

dont neglect snow as its insulation properties are very welcome. if you are in the treeline you can go to the base of a large fir to make your shelter and insulate the base of the tree with snow and twigs as high as you need it. or carve a wedge out of the tree on the leeeward side using the cut boughs to make your bed, then build a fire in the gap.

if that makes sense

if you find trees which are semi buried in snow then you can go close to the trunk and burrow down to be out of the wind and lining it with boughs for insulation

[Democracyman]

In theory building a snow cave etc sounds good, in practice I myself
don't like it much. A lot of work and you get wet usually. I prefer
to carry a tent than build such a shelter. I can only see it as a advantage
in extremely cold weather or extremely windy weather , and if you plan
to be in the thing for several days.

For survival I think it better to make a wood framed shelter and cover that
with boughs or a tarp of some kind and then throw snow on top of that.

Of course a thick bough bed must be made.

Now a question of design,

One way is fairly big open type of design where you have a fire inside or near
by the shelter. Or you make a small tight design and have a fire outside the
shelter. This is what Ron's design is on his winter shelter page.

Of the two I am not sure which one I should favor? I guess it depends
on conditions and situation? Anyone with thoughts?

dont neglect snow as its insulation properties are very welcome. if you are in the treeline you can go to the base of a large fir to make your shelter and insulate the base of the tree with snow and twigs as high as you need it. or carve a wedge out of the tree on the leeeward side using the cut boughs to make your bed, then build a fire in the gap.

I am trying to understand what your saying, Insulate the base with snow
and twigs as high as I need it? Snow is a good insulation as long as you
don't touch it. Still though above 32 degrees it starts to melt and form water,
a person without a sleeping bag is mighty cold at 32 degrees. Can one warm
the inside of a space made from snow much above freezing temp and not
have a waterfall effect? Maybe I am missing something?

My thought is this, if you make a wood frame shelter as in Ron's winter
shelter, throw a tarp on top of that, Then you have a air space that your
body can warm up. Under you, you must have enough boughs to prevent
getting cold from the ground. I have read from four inches minim
up to two/three feet of boughs for ground insulation. So I wonder how much
is needed in lets say zero degree weather, with no fire? Anyway I imagine that
tarp on top of the wooden framework with snow on top of that would
be much better than a plan snow roof, is that correct? To be warmer than
the temp of the snow you have to warm up the air above snow temp, which
is 32 degrees. I wonder if one should make the wood frame work,
then throw on some boughs then the plastic, then the snow, this for the
roof? This would give a transition area for the temp or would this just
create more air you need to warm up to body temp?

Here is how it is I think you want your surrounding air above you and below
you etc to be body temp or above. Snow is stable at 32 degrees, so snow
is 32 degrees or COLDER. You must warm up the air above that temp to be
warm. But snow must chill air warmer than 32 degrees, right? This is really
simple physics. So you need to think how deal with this, right? 32 is warm
when you have a sleeping bag/pad and not getting dripped on by a snow cave
drip, but 32 is cold as heck with a few layers of clothes on and that is it.

or carve a wedge out of the tree on the leeeward side using the cut boughs to make your bed, then build a fire in the gap.

I am not getting a clear idea of what your saying? I am thinking carve a wedge
out of the limbs and boughs of the tree and start a fire there with
your back to the tree, is this right? Seems like a OK shelter not great but
can be done in the dark if needed if benighted.



Dan

[JMJKD]

Bro what are you talking about? U R all over the place? In the tree line, making wood frames, using tarps??? is this survival or making a base camp? Crazy Dave and others offered great suggestions when you R in a pinch. the vid I showed takes a little more time but I used a natural tree fall frame and pine boughs as you asked about. Is any of this better then a tent or cabin?….no, if you don’t have a tent/bive/hammock , then you use nature. if you have sticks and leaves use it…snow use it…a poncho use it.

You don’t favor this and ya don’t like that… my friend in the elements the only thing favored is a warm hotel room with room service…..