[cowgirlup]

Dan, had to read it a couple of times but I get it.

IMO if it is a very temporary stay I wouldn't work much with snow unless I had nothing else. You always end up cold and wet.

if I had the time and resources and the weather was bad I'd try for a shelter that included fire but if you don't have time or the weather isn't that bad a small shelter where you could trench out a place fr heated stones at night would work well.

I can't quite envision the tree/wedge set up either...

[Democracyman]

Bro what are you talking about? U R all over the place? In the tree line, making wood frames, using tarps??? is this survival or making a base camp? Crazy Dave and others offered great suggestions when you R in a pinch. the vid I showed takes a little more time but I used a natural tree fall frame and pine boughs as you asked about. Is any of this better then a tent or cabin?….no, if you don’t have a tent/bive/hammock , then you use nature. if you have sticks and leaves use it…snow use it…a poncho use it.

You don’t favor this and ya don’t like that… my friend in the elements the only thing favored is a warm hotel room with room service…..

Oh yes, I want room service at that.

Thanks for the videos, it was helpful. Just hashing out thoughts, a snow cave
is better than nothing, but could be your tomb if your not careful if you
have no sleeping bag and pad, if one can hike down a thousand feet to the tree
line that could be much better. I don't favor snow caves at this point.
If one could build a small cave and lay a thick bed of boughs that would
work. Most likely you will be sitting wet in the thing after you built it I imagine.

Dan, had to read it a couple of times but I get it.

IMO if it is a very temporary stay I wouldn't work much with snow unless I had nothing else. You always end up cold and wet.

if I had the time and resources and the weather was bad I'd try for a shelter that included fire but if you don't have time or the weather isn't that bad a small shelter where you could trench out a place fr heated stones at night would work well.

I can't quite envision the tree/wedge set up either...

It took some thought but I think I get the tree wedge set up now. I don't
favor it if I had a choice.

But here is the realistic situation, your moving downward in the right direction
hopefully, took a detore around a steep section that you soloed upward but
now it is dark you don't want to solo down what you came up. But you
hit some cliff bands that forced you to down and way over from the place
you stored your backpacks to do the summit. You lose your gear in the
darkness, what now? If your lucky or smart or had hard experience you have
the basic survival gear in your jacket. All the fire starter gear and shelter
in your backpack is now worthless, I know because I had this happen to me
before.(Luckly I had a GPS unit with me and I waypointed the spot the backpacks
were at and we got to our gear this way or we would had a really rough night out, I was
really cold in my bivy tent and 20 degree down sleeping bag that night) In your jacket
you have basic fire starter, a survival knife and hopefully a small
section of painter's plastic drop cloth.

This is what you have and it is dark. You drop in the tree line and you build
a shelter under a shelter or if no big trees and your lucky you find a thick
lush Christmas type of tree and carve a wedge into that. You gather up firewood and
start a fire, gather boughs from close by if you can to make a sitting bed. It will be
a long night but much better than being out in the open. The next day
in full daylight you can find your backpack

Or if your out on a day trip skiing you lose your way, it is getting dark, then
your small day pack has the same basic gear to get through the night. Of
course your lost but you have a headlamp and try to get back and find your
way but long after dark you give up and then just a simple shelter with fire
must do.

The next night if you still can't find your way is when you make the nice
shelter, tight and small to hold in body heat or a large fire in front of a
lean to. Be sure to be careful and save your plastic tarp for second
usage.

I would have in my jacket or snow suit at least basic fire starter
and tinder. Then a survival knife, such a leatherman wave or a
Swiss army knife, just something light and basic, and small plastic
tarp.

If I had a day pack then add in the pack a small cup and a
military shovel, some food and more fire starter gear. Keep
the basic gear in your ski jacket or suit pockets.

This is my thoughts.

Dan

[kevin]

my quick two cents - have a tarp and you can do any config you want.

without tarp; wigwam too much effort forget it.

try to use natural shelter (rocks, down trees etc.) to minimize work.

NO FIRE: Use A-frame as cramped as you can manage so your body can heat it

FIRE: Use a lean-to (with sides), paralell to the wind direction; where inside lying flat your back is almost against the back of the shelter (to reflect head on your back); make it head-high and steep angle. your fire, one big step away, body length with a reflector behind it (use space blanket if possible, otherwise pile logs that you can handle without breaking your back).

[snowshoe67]

Originally Posted by kevin

my quick two cents - have a tarp and you can do any config you want.

without tarp; wigwam too much effort forget it.

try to use natural shelter (rocks, down trees etc.) to minimize work.

NO FIRE: Use A-frame as cramped as you can manage so your body can heat it

FIRE: Use a lean-to (with sides), paralell to the wind direction; where inside lying flat your back is almost against the back of the shelter (to reflect head on your back); make it head-high and steep angle. your fire, one big step away, body length with a reflector behind it (use space blanket if possible, otherwise pile logs that you can handle without breaking your back).

Kevin you're 2 cents are so so right!! a Tarp with help from a Natural Shelter will help!

[Democracyman]

my quick two cents - have a tarp and you can do any config you want.

without tarp; wigwam too much effort forget it.

try to use natural shelter (rocks, down trees etc.) to minimize work.

NO FIRE: Use A-frame as cramped as you can manage so your body can heat it

FIRE: Use a lean-to (with sides), paralell to the wind direction; where inside lying flat your back is almost against the back of the shelter (to reflect head on your back); make it head-high and steep angle. your fire, one big step away, body length with a reflector behind it (use space blanket if possible, otherwise pile logs that you can handle without breaking your back).

Interesting, I like your thinking, some questions if you can answer, the
lean to, why so high up and would you make such a tall steep design when
you have a tarp? The other question would a painters plastic tarp work
as well? I guess you have to make a wood frame work with a painter's tarp
and not have to do so with a real tarp with grommets if you have cordage.
I think to be practical to carry in a jacket it will have to be a plastic
thin painter's tarp with no cordage, or if cordage just dental floss.

I understand the tall lean to concept if you don't have a tarp to shed the
water. But if you have a tarp you can make a low roof design and if you
had snow, then pile that on for insulation? What do you think of this design?

I think by parallel to the wind you mean that the open face of the lean
to is parallel to the wind, right. Why would you do this instead of making
the back of the lean to parallel to the wind? The wind blowing into
the back of the lean to.

Would you change your thinking any if you had two or more people to build
a shelter for rather than just for yourself ?

I imagine you would build shelter first , gather material for fire then
build fire last.

Question, how thick is your bed if you have to use only pine boughs?
The uncompressed thickness before you lay on it.


Thanks

Dan

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Democracyman

Interesting, I like your thinking, some questions if you can answer, the
lean to, why so high up and would you make such a tall steep design when
you have a tarp?

great question; reason is so that the tarp's flat angle does not put the back of it so far from the fire (and you) that it can't reflect to warm your backside. you could "flap" the tarp over the ridge line and guy it out for extra rain protection if needed.

Originally Posted by Democracyman

The other question would a painters plastic tarp work as well? I guess you have to make a wood frame work with a painter's tarp and not have to do so with a real tarp with grommets if you have cordage.

work just fine w/ painter tarp - just buy a grommet kit and add your own (roll the edges a few times and/or add a couple sqaures of duct tape to reinforce the grommet location; good to do a rudimentary wood frame anyway if you have time for support (buschraft northwest website has great tarp lean-to setup video for getting it taught); in lieu of grommets you can create tie-points using a nice smooth round stone

Originally Posted by Democracyman

I think to be practical to carry in a jacket it will have to be a plastic thin painter's tarp with no cordage, or if cordage just dental floss.

for jacket, I have two 42 gallon 3mil contractor bags. slit open they can be duct taped together to create a large surface. dental floss not good for ridge line, but could certainly be helpful to lash wood frame together; better to have paracord bracelet or belt for 10'-20' handy always (or just carry some with you)

Originally Posted by Democracyman

But if you have a tarp you can make a low roof design and if you
had snow, then pile that on for insulation? What do you think of this design?

you can't pile snow on anything that's not framed very strongly!

Originally Posted by Democracyman

I think by parallel to the wind you mean that the open face of the lean
to is parallel to the wind, right. Why would you do this instead of making
the back of the lean to parallel to the wind? The wind blowing into
the back of the lean to.

cuz wind will create a sort of eddy that may draw smoke into your shelter

Originally Posted by Democracyman

Would you change your thinking any if you had two or more people to build a shelter for rather than just for yourself ?

just size/width consideration to accommodate #2

Originally Posted by Democracyman

I imagine you would build shelter first , gather material for fire then build fire last. Question, how thick is your bed if you have to use only pine boughs? The uncompressed thickness before you lay on it.

if raining, shelter first so can make fire in the dry. if not raining, I'd make shelter first anyway, but grab enough dry wood FIRST and protect it so as not to have any unnecessary issue if sudden downpoor. bed is as thick as you've got time and material to make (up to say 2')

[Democracyman]

Thanks for the detailed reply, I have herd or read someplace that get
through a night, you need about ten rounded arm loads of wood, this
is when you have both arms in front of you and loaded with wood.

Does this sound right, do you have a method to gauge the amount
needed to get through a night?

Dan

[xj35s]

I'm a truck driver. In the winter I haul auto waste in a steel dump trailer. I use plastic to prevent it from freezing to the sides as this could cause a rollover while dumping. I tried cheaper .7 mil plastic and it flies all over the place. the lightest breeze will draw it up out of the trailer before the first payloader bucket goes in to hold it down.

2 mil is the thinnest I would take with me anywhere. I use 4 mil in the trailer now. Walmart has a 9x12 painters tarp in 4 mill with stick on grommets. very heavy. The 9x12 2 mil is only slightly heavier than the less than 1 mill plastics.

Has anyone else experimented with the two weights and strengths? I might do some testing. I'll duct tape a 1' section to two wooden stools and add weight untill it tears. See just how much difference there is between 2mil and .7 mil. I'll weigh the 9x12 2 mil and 4 mil with a postage scale and report here.

[Democracyman]

I'm a truck driver. In the winter I haul auto waste in a steel dump trailer. I use plastic to prevent it from freezing to the sides as this could cause a rollover while dumping. I tried cheaper .7 mil plastic and it flies all over the place. the lightest breeze will draw it up out of the trailer before the first payloader bucket goes in to hold it down.

2 mil is the thinnest I would take with me anywhere. I use 4 mil in the trailer now. Walmart has a 9x12 painters tarp in 4 mill with stick on grommets. very heavy. The 9x12 2 mil is only slightly heavier than the less than 1 mill plastics.

Has anyone else experimented with the two weights and strengths? I might do some testing. I'll duct tape a 1' section to two wooden stools and add weight untill it tears. See just how much difference there is between 2mil and .7 mil. I'll weigh the 9x12 2 mil and 4 mil with a postage scale and report here.

I am not sure what should be the least size you can get away with, I had a scale
and it indicated the weight of a 9 X12 foot .7mil tarp to be 6oz which is
still more heavy than I like it would be, I would favor even lighter weight, so
may cut down the size. I think a 8 X 10 plastic tarp to be big enough.

Here is the situation, it depends on what you want and what your willing
to carry and what you want to do.

If you want a real tarp then you need grommets and think on how to
set it up as a tarp. You need the more heavy weight plastic.

If you want a section of plastic to go with a wood framed shelter that your
building then I think .7mil plastic should be able to do the job.

You build the frame, either A frame or a lean to, then you place on boughs,
then you lay on the plastic then you cover that with still more boughs. You
basically build a debris hut with boughs and just use the plastic to waterproof
the shelter. This is my current thinking at the moment, light and simple.

Am I on track? Any thoughts?

Of course if the light gauge plastic gets caught out in the wind it will be ripped to shreds.

My thinking is a light weight in case kit for my jacket, something for just in
case, but the likely hood of using it slim. But good enough if needed if used
in the correct way.

If you have a good scale could post all the weights from .5mil up to 4mil of the
plastic painter tarps? If you can? 9 X 12

Dan

[xj35s]

Yeah, I can agree with that. for just in case thinner is better. I was thinking more in a backpack/planned outing.

The thin stuff is durable enough for that with just a few leaves and grass to keep the wind from lifting it I imagine. I'll test later this week.