[Democracyman]

Hello,

I am thinking about doing some survival shelter and fire practice
and wondering the best ways to try.

I wonder if the wigwam method is the best for two+ people in the
cold as you can have a fire inside it?

I read and saw the photos of Ron's shelter, it looked good, I wonder
how warm it would be in usage? Can you do his same design for
two people with good effect? (His method is given in the
web site under shelters)

As for the Wigwam design, I guess you would want to dig a Dakota
fire hole in the center. And you can still use pine boughs for bedding
and be safe?

For a Dakota fire hole how much fire wood would you need? I read
someplace that in general you need ten rounded full arm fulls of
wood to get through the night?

If you had to choose what would you choose the Wigwam design
or the A frame design as Ron did? Maybe the choice would depend
if you had snow and or how much good fire wood you had on hand
etc? I think the Wigwam design it would be almost impossible to insulate
with snow. With the wigwam method is there is a trick to what tarping
material you would carry for it's usage? The shape being small around on top
and big around on the bottom is a challenge on how to cover it with
poncho's or space blankets, etc. Any tricks?

I see where Ron said to cover the floor with at least four inches of boughs.
Is this enough, I have seen people say at least two feet of boughs? Of
course more is better, but I am wondering what is a good thickness without
going overboard?

I live in the pacific northwest, I am mainly interested in survival shelter
in winter spring or fall, most likely at higher elevation likely near tree
line. Materials to work with will be pine boughs, dead limbs for frame work.
A cheap throw away poncho, maybe a space blanket, a leatherman knife
with saw built in. Fire starter material. Maybe dental floss for cordage.

Shelter for one or more likely for two, or in a rare case maybe up
to four people. May or may not have snow for material. Most likely in rainy weather or at least in wet weather.

I belong to mountain SAR so doing this for myself and for the SAR activity.

Thanks for any ideas, especially experience.

Dan

[Democracyman]

Just a thought, I imagine to build a wigwam shelter quickly it would
help a lot if you had a wigwam shaped space blanket or tarp sewed up?

Dan

[garret]

if you build a fire in an enclosed space you dont need anywhere near the amout of fuel you would out in the open, it is suprising how small a fire will heat a wigwam/tepee up and keep it warm enough to sleep in comfort.

even a small spirit stove will keep a wigwam/tepee bearable in all but the coldest of nights

[ozarks dave]

debris shelter is meant to use your own body heat, the smaller the better as long as you dont roll over in the night and take out a wall lol. you can build a two person debris hut as well, it would even stay that much warmer becuase of the two bodies instead of just one putting out heat. advantages of a debris hut are you dont have to carry building materials with you everywhere, scrounge from teh land. you dont have to build a fire inside to stay warm as it uses your own body heat to keep you comfy.

[crazydave]

hundreds of different shelters but the main thing is to at least get a mental image of as many as possible to copy.

people get confused as to the role of shelter and fire, in such a situation what counts is it adding together to keep you alive till morning, ranger ricks method of wrapping a tarp/foil blanket around you and crouching over a night light being a rather desperate but effective way of doing so.

the sleeping between two long fires method is also strange but quick an effective. even just grabbing a few armfulls of bushy branches and throwing them on top of you is better than nothing.

for the novice though the debris hut heated by hot rocks is one of the best ways of staying warm I reckon.

[Democracyman]

Went out today from the house into the woods. Most all evergreen trees.

Soaking wet from several days rain, no hope for fire it seemed. All is
wet, trees not so big since the area was logged. I guess the oldest
trees around thirty years or so. A lot of limbs on the ground for frame
work but the real problem was fire.

I found some downed logs and dug into them, I only had a leatherman
wave multiple tool, this is all I would carry on a trip into the back country.
I heard that to get pacific north west wood to burn what you needed was
a axe and be able to chop into the wood, I couldn't do that with the little
leatherman. I tried one fire using some semi dry punk from a log. I then
looked around and lucked out. I found a old stump that was hollow in the
middle and about seven feet tall. It had a slab leaning onto the middle and
I pulled that back. Pay dirt, a huge section of wood/punk that was mostly dry.
I used that to start a fired in a small dakota fire hole. The small dead limbs
in the pine trees was soaked far inside the limbs, so these where not very
useful.

I learned something today that to get dry wood in that kind of area and conditions
you have to find a way to get under a log or stump or something.

Also I had a cheap poncho that I brought along for a shelter but it did not
work very well, too small. I decided to pick up a painters cloth and try that
out next time.

You can get large painters cloths cheap, don't know about weight, I guess
the one mil thickness would be fairly light.

As far as the shelter fire combination, no source that I saw said what to
do first?? Do you build shelter first or build fire first?

I would guess you would build shelter first and gather wood first and make
dakota fire hole first, Put in your bedding first THEN work on your fire. Assuming
of course you found a good place to get dry enough wood to
work with at your shelter site.

One problem though the design of shelter would be different if you can't
build a fire verses if you can build a fire, right?

Or should one in wet questionable conditions assume that you can't build
a fire and build shelter to go both ways?

I think the wigwam shelter would be the kind of shelter I would favor
most if I could build it and make fire. To be able to build it in a reasonable
amount of time, I think a large painter's drop cloth could achieve that.

Dan

[cosmic cowboy]

I Googled , "pictures of wigwams," it shows all different style's of wigwams. That painters tarp you are talking about is gonna get soaked and be harder to carry out, unless you ring it out and fold it back up. Maybe bring a small camp ax to see if you can find dry fire wood.

[garret]

Originally Posted by cosmic cowboy

I Googled , "pictures of wigwams," it shows all different style's of wigwams. That painters tarp you are talking about is gonna get soaked and be harder to carry out, unless you ring it out and fold it back up. Maybe bring a small camp ax to see if you can find dry fire wood.

i think he was talking about the plastic painters tarps you can get (the one use kind) although if you are careful they last a while.



as to a question of what comes first, fire or shelter - if it is raining i put my hoochie (8'x8' milspec army tarp) up first like a roof (high enough to stand upright and not touch it with my head) then i can work and not get rained on, also protects the fire from rain extinguishing it.

if it is not blowing a gale or freezing cold i will just unroll my swag and sleep like that, otherwise i make a smaller windbreak/shelter underneath to conserve heat (open sided a frame and fire are my favourite kind of shelter)

[George]

Originally Posted by garret

...
(open sided a frame and fire are my favourite kind of shelter)

Takes care of air to breathe too.

[ozarks dave]

democracy, there is no 'which to build first rule', and only you can decide for yourself what shelter works best for you. myself i like a tarp shelter, ive tried debris huts, not to shabby but i still have better luck with the tarp. cheap 8x10 tarps can be found for as little as 4 bucks. if you carry a small bit of firestarter with you it wont matter how wet the wood is, but practice at home first. i carry some fatwood sticks, small ones that dont take any space, and a couple of weber firestarter cubes. along with my firesteel i can get a fire going almost anywhere. myself, depending on the conditions(raining, snowing, dark already), i usually prefer to get a shelter built(doesnt take as long with a tarp setup as it would building from foraged materials) and then gather as much wood as i can find. dead evergreen boughs burn well even if completly saturated with water because of their resiny properties.
like i said it all depends on you, the area you are in, what you have to work with, and most of all, being prepared.
im not sure if you are trying to do the les stroud or bear grylls thing, but in my opinion what those shows are for is mainly to try and show you what to do if you are put in that situation. real survivalist/preppers survive by being prepared for the worst, or at least having what is needed to get through the worst. i would never go into the woods without 2 ways to make fire, something to be used as a shelter(tarp/hikers tent/something), and a good light/headlight to see to gather wood for fire. and a way to purify water for drinking/cooking after the supply i brought in with me is depleted.