[Democracyman]

There is a way you may get a candle to make a warm area to sit
in or sleep in and it comes from me watching that show about
the natives in the far north, they was reindeer herders above
the arctic circle.

What they did is have a tent inside of a tent and I think this is the
key of the design, you need to have a enclosed shelter and inside
that another smaller shelter with the candle. I think the dead air
space is what is needed to make it warm.

I may be wrong but I can't see how a candle can keep you all that
warm, with just it and being under a blanket.

A true test would be in real winter conditions and only with a jacket on,
just like you would be when you got lost.


I just remember the times when in winter I had a candle in a tent
and it did not warm the inside air even a little that I could detect.

Theory and stories verses reality?

Dan

[Democracyman]

Wildwood Survival - Wilderness Survival - Shelter - Snow Coffin

I just had a thought, if you can dig down to the earth you can put in a fire
bed and have this above you for your shelter. If the snow is not too deep
less than ten feet I think it would go fairly well and you will be nice
and toasty for the night.

You would need to carry a good snow sized snow shovel and a military
shovel in order do all the digging. You may get away with using a snow
claw and a military shovel combination.

Sadly here in the Pacific north west mountains the snow easily can be over ten feet deep.

But it can work in some areas fine.

Dan

[cowgirlup]

I think that as far as heat from the candle it depends on the size of the space you are "heating" as well as some dead air space. Also, it's not going to keep you toasty warm but should keep you from freezing.

[B52gundog]

I also think the candle in the small tent didn't work well because of too much air space. A tent doesn't have much insulation value.

The garbage bag scenario I posed earlier has very little air space to heat and the feeling of the heat from the candle is closer to the body. It may not be comfortable, but I think it'd be warmer than not having it at all as it can also serve as a wind break to prevent the wind from whisking heat from your body (also helping to contain body heat). My vision of using this concept is in a pinch, like if you carried a small survival kit and just realized (or accepted the fact) you're lost with little time (ie. daylight) to make a shelter or build a fire.

Snow has insulation value, so I can see why a candle in a snow shelter would work (as opposed to the small tent). I think a candle in a double-tent concept would work better as air is a good insulator.

Also, when I stayed the night in my cheap space blanket, it's made from aluminized polyester which is designed to reflect heat back. Since I wasn't wearing much sleeping in the space blanket I was quite warm as my body heat was reflected back at me. I would think wrapping myself up in a space blanket instead of a garbage bag would be better because of its ability to reflect heat.

Let's say, if the temp was 20F degrees outside with a 5 to 10MPH windchill (~13 to 9F) and the temp inside this 'in the pinch' shelter was 40F, it's still better than nothing. Sure you'll still shiver and be miserable, but you'd be better off and hopefully still be alive come daybreak.

Obviously, if you had time to improvise something better then you wouldn't have to go to this minimized extreme.

[Democracyman]

Wildwood Survival - Wilderness Survival - Shelter - Snow Coffin

2.) Building a quincey is an easy way to get hypothermia. The work of piling up snow into a sizable mound and then digging out the interior involves moving a considerable mass of snow. This is tiring work and would drain important energy reserves in any survival situation. It is hard to hollow out the inside without getting covered in snow. Furthermore, the body heat produced by the exertion melts the snow you are touching and as you overheat, you get soaked. Exhausted and with your clothing totally useless as insulation, you are now a perfect candidate for hypothermia once you have completed your shelter. I once had various groups of students build different models of snow shelters at an outdoor education center. Members of the quincey group had to be evacuated to the lodge for precisely the reasons outlined above. They had produced a nice shelter, but they were drained, drenched and numb from the cold.

To build a straight forward snow cave or snow hole would take less time
than a quincey, you could make bedding with boughs and of course put a
door made out of a snow ball, a pack or a trash bag full of snow. This would
be much better than out in the open, but if your wet in that snow hole, I
really think you will be lucky to make it past one night in the thing. You have
to get out and start moving the next day. Often you hear stories that people
die in snow caves. If you have a nice pad and a overrated sleeping bag it
is possible to slowly dry your clothes out in a tent or snow cave. The key
is a really over rated sleeping bag, you want one at least rated for zero
degrees to have any chance to dry out your clothes overnight. Better to
have one rated to -20 degrees, you need this extra rating to dry out wet
clothes.

If you have no sleeping gear.

If your in tree line and can start a fire and have enough good wood
you can build a fire that night or the next day, this will give a person
better options. Also the wood available can give you other options as the
author states you can dig his type of shelter and stay much dryer while building
it and this is no trivial consideration in a real survival situation. Those
sources which say to just dig a snow hole or cave, I wonder if they actually ever
done this shelter? If you have sleeping gear that is one situation, but with no sleeping
gear it will be really rough and survival will be in question after the first night, at daylight
you will almost have to get out and start moving, this is what I would think. I have spent
a fairly cold night in a snow shelter like this in the winter with a sleeping bag and pad,
also when you build a snow cave or snow hole your tired and soaking wet. I don't know
everything, but if I am cold and wet with sleeping gear when going to bed in
a snow hole or cave, how cold would it be with no gear? I would do everything in my
power to get to tree line where I would have a chance
to get a fire going and build a shelter there.

The question is what type of shelter and fire combination would work the
best?

I like the above construction and I like Ron's basic shelter as given on
this site. I also have thought about the pre made plastic sheet tepee.

One improvement could be to build Ron's A framed shelter and to add two
layers of plastic sheeting all around it. This may greatly increase the insulation
around the shelter, something to try out. You lay down one sheet
of plastic on top of the A frame then pile on boughs, then you
add another layer of plastic and add snow, so you would have trapped air
inside the layer of boughs. Also the same for the floor,
plastic sheet then boughs , then plastic sheet on top. I wonder if
this would be worth the effort to carry and use? I am going to look for
some .35mil plastic sheeting painters drop cloth and see how that would
work.

Dan

[northernbc]

if anybody wants to run any experiments i have a quincy in the front yard.

[snowshoe67]

Found this youtube Video It's good,I have made a few smaller ones before, here is the Video YouTube - HOW TO BUILD A SNOW SHELTER

[Chris Kavanaugh]

First things first. If you are tired and wet in snow conditions you likely spent too much time in a panic or trying to walk it out or finish some stupid task ( and caping that record Boone and Crocket Club buck is stupid if you die doing it) before a reality check said ' I can die, better get to shelter.' An experienced woodsman would have been in a shelter about 2 hours minimum before you, probably 4. People need to reset their city clock to Nature's. And sometimes her clock can really test the hubris of people. This isn't the freeway with people acting like idiots to save 3 minutes on a trip. This is Nature saying NO, you aren't going to make that rendevous as planned in 1 day, maybe 3 if I'm in a good mood and you pay close attention.
So, you are relatively dry, not to fatigued, have some DAYLIGHT or visibility left before the storm hits.
Options:
Yes, I have spent a night in both the 'coffin' and a tree well during arctic survival training in the service. For warmth small is beautifull.' Those tents are cold because as mentioned they have zip insulation and even small ones are geared to people who think their T.V. room is God's allotment of personal space in the universe. And no, you wont be comfy warm as if in your own bed with hot cocoa mom brought in. You will be 'comfortably cold.' You will be alive. The snow creating a tree well is usually very stable. You vent the thing and with care can use candles or even a small squaw fire with a safe base.If you thought ahead, you also have a nice hard salami, peanut butter or even gathered pine nuts. You want FATS, all those dripping heart attack calorie evil things American's are in a epidemic of obesity over.
And you need enough space to stretch out. Yes, you will subconsciously curl up in the fetal position to keep warmer and if you're using the tea candle trick under a poncho look like the Great Buddha at Kamakura. But you will NEED to stretch out and periodicaly rest those leg muscles that are going to carrry you out in the morning.
Any snow shelter short of a classic Igloo is good 1-2 days tops. It's simple, while you are keeping 'warm' in it your body heat or that pink lady candle is slowly melting snow and creating a cold,wet sink until the two forces gain parity and cold takes control once more. we have only so many tea candles and hard salamis. Nature has zillions of ice crystals she isn't doing much with at the moment.
Another vital need is overlooked in the cold. Dehydration can make you 'get stupid' lethargic and dead. Drink some tea,coffee, mom's cocoa or even hot water. You need it as much as a 100 degree day in the desert somebody else is trying to survive in somewhere.And this reminds me of an overlooked detail. If you need to pee do it in situ. that's latin for where you is, or are. People walk outside even in good weather to relief themselves, go back in and are cold the rest of the night.Nice table manners are best left at home sometimes.
I can distill all this real simple: Be Prepared like the Boy Scouts or Semper Paratus like my old outfit. And bring a sleeping bag already! when I see the 5lbs MINIMUM junk people haul along even for a dayhike there just isn't any excuse not to. I do, and one day ol' Ellen Degeneres made jokes about it until I explained it was for both of us later ( with a leer.)

[Celticwarrior]

Originally Posted by Chris Kavanaugh

And bring a sleeping bag already! when I see the 5lbs MINIMUM junk people haul along even for a dayhike there just isn't any excuse not to. I do, and one day ol' Ellen Degeneres made jokes about it until I explained it was for both of us later ( with a leer.)

Umm, last time I checked, you are lacking the equipment that ol' Ellen prefers snuggling with, sleeping bag or not. Unless CK is just a nom-de-plume and you are actually Portia de Rossi? In which case, I loved you in Ally McBeal.

[Democracyman]

Thanks for the post, in reality for a climber or a hiker more likely than not
you are up high coming down, your going light, like bikini underwear light
as this is what you do as a climber. Is is smart? yes or no?, it is what you
do as a climber. Light and fast is safer than heavy and slow in MOST cases
as a climber, but to go too light is a risk as well, so you make a balance between
the two extremes. You learn and hopefully have learned from past
experiences to carry something to have a chance to survive with, but not
so much weight to slow you down or by that extra weight cause extra risk
of a fall etc. It is like this if you have a 50 pound back pack on and want
to climb a latter to a roof top, how safe is that as compared to little or no
weight on your back? This is the same for anyone who goes outdoors (I edited
this to better explain the viewpoint of how much weight to carry for all outdoors people)
Remember often hikers/hunters/fishermen get into climbing situations and at that moment
that hiker is a full fledged climber and likely a solo climber and that hiker most likely does
not consider themselves as a climber, but at that moment they are never the less.

In my case, I learned to carry a hand held GPS unit and have my camp marked, my left behind pack marked, the beginning to the visible trail head marked. For a climber or a hiker moving above the treeline or leaving the gear behind the most important survival gear in this modern age is a gps unit that you can way point your gear and trail head as you move down out of the white stuff. A couple of months ago I used my GPS to get to my pack after dark, it would have been really hard to find it without the GPS. So my policy is have a GPS and ALWAYS mark all left behind gear and camps and important features and of course the location of the truck before I leave it. Then the GPS will let you back track to it.

If that fails then you need some sort of kit and skills. That is what I am
working out.

Most often even though it is wrong in a sense, people keep moving after dark,
trying to find camp or find a pack or a trail head and so on. You do this with
your head lamp and most often you find your way. To me to say simply
that one should stop way before dark to make camp is not realistic for
what really happens to most people. In fact most people come out after
dark on a hike out and all is fine. If you know you have to make camp,
then you of course do so before dark if you can. In reality most often
you don't realize you have to make camp until after dark.

The thing is to think on how to make fire and shelter after dark, typically
we play in the daylight but in a real survival situation your making camp
after dark. So I wonder about this, how will this change things? You can't
see near as good even with a good headlamp and how will this effect things?
I need to go out later on after I get some more experience in the daylight
and see for a fact what is possible after dark.

As for being hydrated in winter I also think this is very important. To hike cold
is a big help, if your sweating hot with too many clothes stop and take them
off. With many people , men in a group the tendency is to keep moving and
not stop, it is the macho thing. Don't hesitate to stop the group and strip layers,
more likely than not the other members of the party need to strip layers as well.
This has many good effects, first your cooler and you will sweat less, also you
clothes will not get as saturated with sweat, and the
layers you take off will be dry. You will not need as much water and will not
get as dehydrated as quickly. If you stop for any length of time throw on
a outer jacket and then before you leave take off the jacket , put it back
into the pack. Unless your in high winds you use under garments that
are breathable, if your in high winds and not too cold, wear only your t-shirt
and your shell jacket, hike cool to cold.

I don't favor too much coco and too much tea when your trying to hydrate, use plain
water or a water with a powdered electrolyte.

Something like this can be a life saver.

Clif Electrolyte Replacement Drink - Individual Packets at REI.com

There are other products, I get a different type from the health food store.
It puts flavor into the water and the water freezes at slightly lower temp.
I carry at least 5 packs for every trip out.

In any case, I plan to carry some gear even when going fairly light, what
I will carry will vary on what I am doing. Some places your above tree line
for almost all of the climb, so little sense in carrying anything other than
gear for a snow cave. Maybe a little fire starting gear so if your lost and go
into the tree line lost.

Right now I am wondering if I could make a good snow coffin using only
large trash bags stuffed with snow for the roof? Will this work?

(I edited this post from the original because I want to be more clear
to the non outdoors men public and to the non climbers of how we
deal with safety issues in the outdoors, light and fast is safer in climbing.
Just as a worker on a roof would not want to encumbered with extra
weight as they are on a steep roof.)

Dan