[John Galt]

Interesting thread. I would say that it depends on how they approached me.

If they asked to work food, I would do what I could to help. If they just want me to give them something simply becuase they asked, I would likely say no.

How much I would give and for how long would really depend on the situation.

[pete1gun]

your family is of course number one then woman and children first, how can any one truly call them selves an American if they will turn away other fellow Americans in need especially children which are the future of humanity. if one does not have the food supply to help feed others well that's fine, one of the main reasons for my interest in this sight is not to hear how people will be selfish in a catastrophe but to learn ways that people can work together ,grow and harvest food, history can and does repeat it's self, we can take a small lesson learned by reading about the Neanderthals which lived in small numbers were very well adapted to their environment until the environment changed, and whether it be because of their small numbers and lack of adaptation , or due to the more advanced Cro-Magnons which survived in large sustained groups thanks to their sociability and organized survival methods. we must not lose sight that if an extreme SHIT HIT THE FAN situation were to occur then for those who would only keep to them selves, then eventually down the road your genes will not be passed on unless you are inbreeding, and those that work together for the greater good of humanity, will surpass and one day replenish the population.we should also remember that the only reason man kind has gotten to where we are now is because of our social behavior, being social is the reason why we have advanced as far as we have. kinda like this forum one person has knowledge and passes it along to some one else thus creating a circle of knowledge. I hope that this view is not taken in any wrong way then what I intended it for, which is that for short term survival yes we can all stay in small groups but in order for humanity to survive and not become extinct then we would have to retain our inherited social behaviors.

[tjwilhelm]

Yes, this is a VERY interesting thread; and, IMHO, probably one of the most relevant and significant topics to be worked through, relative to a real SHTF scenario.

This is one of those "razor's edge" kind of subjects that does not have an easy answer. The real-life solution to keeping yourself from starving, while dealing with those around you who are staving, will likely involve a great deal of compromise, sacrifice, both formal and informal leadership, and the creation of some form of tribal/group/social organization. It will also involve making choices when there are no good options to choose from -- choosing between the bad option and the worse option.

Have you thought about having a serious discussion on this kind of subject with your family and close friends? If not, why not?

Wouldn't it be wise to at least have some kind of conceptual understanding among your "Group" that would provide the foundation for decisive action, if and when the SHTF? It doesn't have to detailed. It just needs to provide a basic guideline for your family and close friends to follow. For example:

You've had a hypothetical discussion with your wife, kids, parents, siblings, siblings spouses, and a few close friends who are just like your own family. Some of them said you were nuts, and most of them thought the discussion (while interesting) was totally NOT necessary. Nonetheless, you got everyone to accept that IF the SHTF, everyone will throw as much preserved food as they can into the trunk of their car(s), with all their camping gear, and they'll all head for Grandpa's house because he was the only one with a home in a rural area, and he has 8 acres with a small woodlot.

Most of the folks in the "Group" will blow it off within 10 minutes after the discussion; BUT, as soon as the SHTF, the first thought that will come to their mind is "Holy crap! What do we do NOW? OH! I remember! Quick! Box up all thosed canned foods from the cupboards and let's drive across the State to Grandpa's! We can't call anybody because the phones don't work; and, we can't stay here because we don't have any heat. BUT, we all agreed we'd go to Grandpa's!"

Also, while most of your family and friends will likely blow it off and set it aside (until the SHTF), there will likely be at least ONE other person who really gets where you're coming from. This will be the person(s) who will help you plan for sustaining the "Group" for whatever period of time you deem necessary. This will be the person(s) who will help you to gather and stash the resources needed to sustain the group, expecting that most of them will be bringing at least SOME food and SOME camping supplies. This will be the person(s), along with yourself, who will provide the necessary leadership to guide the rest of your "Group" through the survival situation.

A few key words that will be critical to the survival of your "Group" are:

Cooperation -- preferably WILLING cooperation; but, FORCED cooperation, if need be.

Sharing -- preferably WILLING sharing of both resources and work load; but, FORCED sharing, if need be.

Here's an example of how a single conversation can last a lifetime:

When my oldest kids were little, there was no such thing as cell phones. Unfortunately, there were such things as perverts. Like all good parents, we had a talk with our kids about being wary of strangers. We explained all the ways that "bad" strangers may try to lure them into a dangerous situation -- candy lures, puppy or kitty lures, and by the stranger telling the kids that he is a friend of their parents, and that their parents are in trouble and asked this "friend" to get the kids and bring them to their parents.

In order to deal with this last scenario, we told the kids that if their mother and I were ever hurt or in trouble, and if we had to send a stranger to get them, that we would give the stranger a password. If the stranger did not say the password, then the kids would know that this was a "bad" stranger.

The password we used was each child's middle name, repeated twice. In other words, if a stranger had tried to use this ploy with my oldest son (whose middle name is Thomas), unless the stranger knew that the special password was "Thomas-Thomas," then my son knew he was to immediately turn 180 degrees and run like hell! That was 30 years ago, it was a one-time discussion, and the kids still remember this password technique.

Is it time to have a SHTF discussion with your family and friends? Remember, SHTF can be local as well as global. Hurricane Katrina was SHTF for the folks on the gulf coast. When DHL shut down their depot in south-central Ohio, and put over 50% of the workforce on the unemployment roster, that was SHTF for them.

For what it's worth...

[ColcordMama]

Very good points, TJ (can I call you TJ?) and something everybody needs to practice. Let me add a few thoughts. Remember back to your last screaming-running-around-everybody's-gonna-die situation, remember how it was so hard to think or remember everything you needed to do? Maybe your wife was in labor, or somebody was in a car accident, or a kid went missing. It's hard to be rational in times like that.

So what I did was make up cheap day-glo orange folders filled with checklists, detailed instructions, maps and alternate maps, reminders and tips for each member of my family, for their use if TSHTF. I wrote the stuff on the computer, printed out a set for each folder, and assembled the folders with names on the front. I've given them out to my family members. That way if TSHTF and we all have to bug out to our safe house, everyone knows exactly what they should bring (with a place to check each thing off as they put it in the car), how they should get there (plus how they can get there by trails and forest roads and back ways JIC there are roadblocks on the fastest, most direct way), so if they can't think straight they don't have to, all they have to do is follow the instructions in the folder.

[cowgirlup]

Good idea on the folders Kay.


We've talked about this a lot. The hints we drop to friends are met with rolled eyes. It's frustrating. Last weekend one of our friends saw my GHB in the back of my truck and asked what it was. Craig said "It's an emergency bag. In case you have an emergency." Our friend looked like it had never crossed his mind to have such a thing.

It's easy to say you won't take people in that you know. At first it's decided that if people didn't heed the warning then they are on their own. Then you start putting names and faces to it and it all changes.

It's just frustrating that people won't take basic precautions.

[NorthWet]

Originally Posted by ColcordMama

Very good points, TJ (can I call you TJ?) and something everybody needs to practice. Let me add a few thoughts. Remember back to your last screaming-running-around-everybody's-gonna-die situation, remember how it was so hard to think or remember everything you needed to do? Maybe your wife was in labor, or somebody was in a car accident, or a kid went missing. It's hard to be rational in times like that.

So what I did was make up cheap day-glo orange folders filled with checklists, detailed instructions, maps and alternate maps, reminders and tips for each member of my family, for their use if TSHTF. I wrote the stuff on the computer, printed out a set for each folder, and assembled the folders with names on the front. I've given them out to my family members. That way if TSHTF and we all have to bug out to our safe house, everyone knows exactly what they should bring (with a place to check each thing off as they put it in the car), how they should get there (plus how they can get there by trails and forest roads and back ways JIC there are roadblocks on the fastest, most direct way), so if they can't think straight they don't have to, all they have to do is follow the instructions in the folder.

When I grow up, I wanna be as organized as you! LOL (just hope they don't misplace them on you for lack of priorities and forethought on their part)

[tjwilhelm]

Originally Posted by ColcordMama

Very good points, TJ (can I call you TJ?) ...

Kay, My friends call me TJ. You can call me TJ.

[Wolf]

I don't openly advertise to the world that I have food stocks, to me that's the first step in ensuring hords of people don't show up on my door step.

From the outside, my house looks just like any other. Nothing fancy showing through any windows that may attract interest. If people did happen by, it would be by chance.

If I turned away starving people that's something I would have to live with for the rest of my life.

Personally I feel anyone who would hide,......... no cower away in safety watching people starve is a selfish p***k . Most people do it every day when the S hasn't HTF so why would it be any different in a bad situation. It's that kind of selfish attitude that makes the world such a happy place to live in today.

Ever notice how people are most likely starving in your city right now as we speak and no one seems to care. If a starving child knocked on your door right now asking for food what would most of you do?

Shoo the kid away and call the police maybe ?, Not answer the door and pretend not to be home ?

Or would you give the kid something to eat, not fearing that suddenly every starving homeless person in the city would make a run for your doorstep ?

I hate to say it, but if TSHTF today, we as the human race would be no more cruel to each other than we already are.

[ColcordMama]

Originally Posted by Wolf

I don't openly advertise to the world that I have food stocks, to me that's the first step in ensuring hords of people don't show up on my door step.

From the outside, my house looks just like any other. Nothing fancy showing through any windows that may attract interest. If people did happen by, it would be by chance.

If I turned away starving people that's something I would have to live with for the rest of my life.

Personally I feel anyone who would hide,......... no cower away in safety watching people starve is a selfish p***k . Most people do it every day when the S hasn't HTF so why would it be any different in a bad situation. It's that kind of selfish attitude that makes the world such a happy place to live in today.

Ever notice how people are most likely starving in your city right now as we speak and no one seems to care. If a starving child knocked on your door right now asking for food what would most of you do?

Shoo the kid away and call the police maybe ?, Not answer the door and pretend not to be home ?

Or would you give the kid something to eat, not fearing that suddenly every starving homeless person in the city would make a run for your doorstep ?

I hate to say it, but if TSHTF today, we as the human race would be no more cruel to each other than we already are.

You're right, there are desperate people out there right now, and it hasn't even hit the fan yet. There have been LOTS of times in grocery stores when someone has caught my eye, and I've done something. I watched a mother with several kids ask her boy (maybe 10 or 11) take a package of bologna back because she obviously couldn't pay the cost after everything was added up. She was right in front of me in the checkout line, so I stepped in and paid the extra. I'll never forget her. She and the kids weren't looking for a handout, were dressed in clean but not good clothing, and those kids weren't any one of them fat by any means. Broke my heart. Another time an elderly woman was shopping in the same small IGA as me, and I observed her clearly trying to stay within a budget, with some pitiful groceries in her cart. It was obvious to me she was living alone and trying to scrape by. She wasn't paying attention to people around her, just checking all the prices of the cheapest most basic food, putting some things back on the shelf. I got in front of her at the checkout and before I left, slipped the cashier a $20 and told her to give it to the woman as a love gift from a stranger. (Now before someone says I'm too trusting, I shop at that store all the time and know the cashiers and yes, I do trust that one.) These are just a couple examples of times I've done something, instead of passing by or turning away.

I don't believe in karma but I do think Someone is watching, and I'm obligated to Him to help take care of those around me who are in desperate straits, because what I have isn't mine, but just a loan from that same Someone.

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by ColcordMama

You're right, there are desperate people out there right now, and it hasn't even hit the fan yet. There have been LOTS of times in grocery stores when someone has caught my eye, and I've done something. I watched a mother with several kids ask her boy (maybe 10 or 11) take a package of bologna back because she obviously couldn't pay the cost after everything was added up. She was right in front of me in the checkout line, so I stepped in and paid the extra. I'll never forget her. She and the kids weren't looking for a handout, were dressed in clean but not good clothing, and those kids weren't any one of them fat by any means. Broke my heart. Another time an elderly woman was shopping in the same small IGA as me, and I observed her clearly trying to stay within a budget, with some pitiful groceries in her cart. It was obvious to me she was living alone and trying to scrape by. She wasn't paying attention to people around her, just checking all the prices of the cheapest most basic food, putting some things back on the shelf. I got in front of her at the checkout and before I left, slipped the cashier a $20 and told her to give it to the woman as a love gift from a stranger. (Now before someone says I'm too trusting, I shop at that store all the time and know the cashiers and yes, I do trust that one.) These are just a couple examples of times I've done something, instead of passing by or turning away.

I don't believe in karma but I do think Someone is watching, and I'm obligated to Him to help take care of those around me who are in desperate straits, because what I have isn't mine, but just a loan from that same Someone.

Like I said, I wish there were more people like you around.

It breaks my heart to see hard working people unable to make ends meet. In a true survival SHTF situ, it may very well be my downfall.

What some people don't realize is than many people cannot afford basic preps for an emergency. Its easy to judge from where we sit, but I can afford to stock extra food. Many people can't even afford enough to meet basic nutritional requirements or pay the rent.